Although Eric Mings participation was a bit before my
time, this very topic came up in conversation last Friday
as I was dragging my sorry self up Dog Mountain in WA
state with Dr. Ming's contemporary, Der Mad Stamper.
His site was inactive but alive for several years until fairly
recently, when URL came up for grabs. Amazingly enough,
no letterboxer claimed letterboxing.com and today it's
a page where you can purchase all manner of mailboxes.

Perhaps, DMS, Jay Drew or Susan Davis or one of the other
early-birds, can elaborate on my meager (and possibly
incorrect) knowledge. I know, Eric is not As far as longer
active in the hobby. Anyone know anything more about him?
BTW it warms my heart to know that someone is brave enough
to ferret through the formidable archives! Funhog



--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "judithsparky" wrote:
> Going all the way back to the first messages in 1998, I see that this
> list is a split from a list hosted by "Eric". The split was because
> Eric was going to begin to charge for his database. My question is -
> Is Eric's list still operating? If so, what is is the address? Sorry
> in advance if this question has been asked and answered before.

Historical notes:

This list is not a split from someone else's list. The Eric in question (not to be confused with Erik the Vermont Viking) was an early member of this list. He was interested in letterboxing as a for-profit enterprise. The majority of list and website founders did not support the notion so Eric left the group. I believe he ran a list for a short while and then it died out. I have no knowledge of his list URL.

A fundamental principle of our group has been expressed as such:

"Any child can go to public access computer and find clues to take their family on an adventure."

Membership fees and restricted access are not consistent with this guiding principle.

Regards,
Susan
a founding member of LbNA



----- Original Message -----
From: judithsparky
To: letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2005 7:44 PM
Subject: [LbNA] A History question


Going all the way back to the first messages in 1998, I see that this
list is a split from a list hosted by "Eric". The split was because
Eric was going to begin to charge for his database. My question is -
Is Eric's list still operating? If so, what is is the address? Sorry
in advance if this question has been asked and answered before.




------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/letterbox-usa/

b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
letterbox-usa-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

It's curious that a date in 1998 should seem ancient isn't it ?

Or maybe it's just me being old.

"Eric Mings PHD" as he liked to sign off was a letterboxer too. True
it was in the pre-F count era ! (Yep we didn't use F's or P's or any
kinda counts at the start).

I know he planted at least one in Florida ( I think he set out three
)..I have his Titusville box stamp in my early collection.

A quick scan still shows Eric as a practicing psychologist and state
and court expert in mental disorder and working in Florida ..and oddly
the same home phone is also listed as a Chinese restaurant too !

But the thing the first questioner said that struck a chord with me
was the phrase "is a split from"...

It seems to me that splitting is a traditional letterboxing habit

There have been many letterboxing lists and groups.

The listed founder (if you believe message 1) of LBNA is Dan (Dan'l)
Servatius ..But he himself left under a barrage of flame wars...

The main issue most people had with Eric Mings PHD was his "Lengthy"
..and I mean "lengthy", postings on rules (And to some extent that he
did want to set up a scheme to pay for using his sites...though he
never implemented it).

It's rules that cause the splits...

Eric's may have been about "pay to play", Dan'ls was a bit more
sensitive, but in both cases the nucleues of Letterboxers was very
small and not enough to get a critical mass backing any one "leader".

The "rules wars" seem to continue even today...Which is the saddest
character of us boxers I think.

Wanna see one beginning ?..look at message 5 !! Yep even there Dan is
setting rules ... and sowing the whirlwind of a later split.

He says..." I discourage you from posting your clues here if you are
also posting them with a "Fee for clues" type of service."

How Dan'l would have viewed Atlas Quest is a teaser ..

Actually Dan'l and Eric were both OK kinda people..but LBNA has moved
on ... Letterboxing is a great idea...change is inevitable and good
and just why this hobby survives...How Dartmoor has stayed so isolated
and resistant to change amazes me !

It's nice to see Susan and Mitch and other "oldens" are still
around...I hope you continue to enjoy our simple fun. God Bless You all.

I do miss the names we have lost along the way.

The Real Erik is especially chersihed in my memory too Suan and I
wouldn't ever confuse him with Doc Mings.

In my book, Erik The Vermont Viking.."The First Letterboxer of
America" is the founder of our hobby in the USA, and holds a poignant
place in Letterboxing Lore...(as does Susan !)

As to the "bad-guys" I wonder what Dan'l and Doc Mings are doing
now?

And why message 3 and 4 have been deleted

(I still have em on "my" files though )

Take care

Heartland

(You wont find my name in the early lists ...I changed my trail name
to "protect the innocent"....and that really shows my age !! )

Octagenarian Boxers Liberation Front !



--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "Susan Randall Davis"
wrote:
>
> Historical notes:
>
> This list is not a split from someone else's list. The Eric in
question (not to be confused with Erik the Vermont Viking) was an
early member of this list. He was interested in letterboxing as a
for-profit enterprise. The majority of list and website founders did
not support the notion so Eric left the group. I believe he ran a
list for a short while and then it died out. I have no knowledge of
his list URL.
>
> A fundamental principle of our group has been expressed as such:
>
> "Any child can go to public access computer and find clues to take
their family on an adventure."
>
> Membership fees and restricted access are not consistent with this
guiding principle.
>
> Regards,
> Susan
> a founding member of LbNA
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: judithsparky
> To: letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2005 7:44 PM
> Subject: [LbNA] A History question
>
>
> Going all the way back to the first messages in 1998, I see that this
> list is a split from a list hosted by "Eric". The split was because
> Eric was going to begin to charge for his database. My question is -
> Is Eric's list still operating? If so, what is is the address?
Sorry
> in advance if this question has been asked and answered before.
>
>
>
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/letterbox-usa/
>
> b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> letterbox-usa-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

There may be a gram of truth in what you say.

>It's curious that a date in 1998 should seem ancient isn't it ?
>
>Or maybe it's just me being old.
>
>"Eric Mings PHD" as he liked to sign off was a letterboxer too. True
>it was in the pre-F count era ! (Yep we didn't use F's or P's or any
>kinda counts at the start).
>
>I know he planted at least one in Florida ( I think he set out three
>)..I have his Titusville box stamp in my early collection.
>
>A quick scan still shows Eric as a practicing psychologist and state
>and court expert in mental disorder and working in Florida ..and oddly
>the same home phone is also listed as a Chinese restaurant too !
>
>But the thing the first questioner said that struck a chord with me
>was the phrase "is a split from"...
>
>It seems to me that splitting is a traditional letterboxing habit
>
>There have been many letterboxing lists and groups.
>
>The listed founder (if you believe message 1) of LBNA is Dan (Dan'l)
>Servatius ..But he himself left under a barrage of flame wars...
>
>The main issue most people had with Eric Mings PHD was his "Lengthy"
>..and I mean "lengthy", postings on rules (And to some extent that he
>did want to set up a scheme to pay for using his sites...though he
>never implemented it).
>
>It's rules that cause the splits...
>
>Eric's may have been about "pay to play", Dan'ls was a bit more
>sensitive, but in both cases the nucleues of Letterboxers was very
>small and not enough to get a critical mass backing any one "leader".
>
>The "rules wars" seem to continue even today...Which is the saddest
>character of us boxers I think.
>
>Wanna see one beginning ?..look at message 5 !! Yep even there Dan is
>setting rules ... and sowing the whirlwind of a later split.
>
>He says..." I discourage you from posting your clues here if you are
>also posting them with a "Fee for clues" type of service."
>
>How Dan'l would have viewed Atlas Quest is a teaser ..
>
>Actually Dan'l and Eric were both OK kinda people..but LBNA has moved
>on ... Letterboxing is a great idea...change is inevitable and good
>and just why this hobby survives...How Dartmoor has stayed so isolated
>and resistant to change amazes me !
>
>It's nice to see Susan and Mitch and other "oldens" are still
>around...I hope you continue to enjoy our simple fun. God Bless You all.
>
>I do miss the names we have lost along the way.
>
>The Real Erik is especially chersihed in my memory too Suan and I
>wouldn't ever confuse him with Doc Mings.
>
>In my book, Erik The Vermont Viking.."The First Letterboxer of
>America" is the founder of our hobby in the USA, and holds a poignant
>place in Letterboxing Lore...(as does Susan !)
>
>As to the "bad-guys" I wonder what Dan'l and Doc Mings are doing
>now?
>
>And why message 3 and 4 have been deleted
>
>(I still have em on "my" files though )
>
>Take care
>
>Heartland
>
>(You wont find my name in the early lists ...I changed my trail name
>to "protect the innocent"....and that really shows my age !! )
>
>Octagenarian Boxers Liberation Front !
>
>
>
>--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "Susan Randall Davis"
> wrote:
>>
>> Historical notes:
>>
>> This list is not a split from someone else's list. The Eric in
>question (not to be confused with Erik the Vermont Viking) was an
>early member of this list. He was interested in letterboxing as a
>for-profit enterprise. The majority of list and website founders did
>not support the notion so Eric left the group. I believe he ran a
>list for a short while and then it died out. I have no knowledge of
>his list URL.
>>
>> A fundamental principle of our group has been expressed as such:
>>
>> "Any child can go to public access computer and find clues to take
>their family on an adventure."
>>
>> Membership fees and restricted access are not consistent with this
>guiding principle.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Susan
>> a founding member of LbNA
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: judithsparky
>> To: letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2005 7:44 PM
>> Subject: [LbNA] A History question
>>
>>
>> Going all the way back to the first messages in 1998, I see that this
>> list is a split from a list hosted by "Eric". The split was because
>> Eric was going to begin to charge for his database. My question is -
>> Is Eric's list still operating? If so, what is is the address?
>Sorry
>> in advance if this question has been asked and answered before.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>> a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/letterbox-usa/
>>
>> b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>> letterbox-usa-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>
>> c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
>Service.
>>
>>
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "heartland_50"
wrote:
>
> It's nice to see Susan and Mitch and other "oldens" are still
> around...I hope you continue to enjoy our simple fun. God Bless You
all.
>
> I do miss the names we have lost along the way.

Thanks for the peek into the archives. Gwen and I were lucky to start
when we did as the archive research was not as daunting as it is
today. I remember going over those early posts and wondering what the
unpublished posts must have contained, better yet maybe it is just as
well they remain unpublished.

Don

So how many stamps do you "oldies" have in your logbooks?


Mookie Fish

HUNDREDS ....



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, LetHerBox@a... wrote:
> So how many stamps do you "oldies" have in your logbooks?

We aren't into PFX counting , but you could go to the Search for Boxes
page and check the P number on anyone that has planted a box and
posted clues through LBNA. You could do the same at AQ, but in both
cases it will only give you a number that is less than accurate. At AQ
the F number is listed also, but that is an F for those that are
posted at AQ. The P number is less at LBNA due to missing,
confiscated,retired letterboxes,and WOM clues for some other boxes.

We started in December 2000 and there was not an emphasis on counting.
Heck we were just happy to find one when we went looking, and we still
feel the same way. Don't get me wrong, I'm not criticizing anyone that
knows exactly what their PFX count is, it just isn't something that
concerns us. Instead of numbers I would rather recall locations.

Don

As I recall, the early chain of events went something like this... I read about letterboxing in the Smithsonian article, and began searching the web. This was probably sometime in May, 1998. I came across a very rudimentary page that had been created by Dan'l. It didn't have any clues... it just mentioned letterboxing and the Smithsonian article, and said something about trying to organize a list of volunteers and contacts from various states.

I wrote to Dan'l and learned that he and EriK Davis had also read the article and had found each other throught the 'net. EriK had already planted at least one box, and now they had been talking about creating a web site to start housing the clues. I told him I thought this was very interesting, and said that if they needed me I would be happy to volunteer to organize things for the state of Oregon. Dan'l told me that he had already heard from someone else in Oregon named Thom. He said Thom had gone out and planted a box as soon as he read the article, in order to create a challenge for his 4x4 offroad buddies. So there was already a box in Oregon, but Dan'l didn't really think that Thom was going to have enough free time to serve as a volunteer. Therefore, he said they would be happy to list me as the volunteer for Oregon. Shortly after that, I also volunteered to help Dan'l build the website.

As our group began to grow, Dan'l communicated to us by sending emails out to a long list of emails that all showed up at the top of every message. This was back before spam and viruses had become major threats, so nobody seemed too concerned about it. Before long, there were thirty or forty names on the list. One of them was Doc Mings from Florida. The Doc recognized that Dan'l's practice of inserting a long list of email addresses into the "To" box had its limitations, so he announced one day that he was creating a listserve (talk list) for us to use for communicating. Sounded like a great idea, so we all embraced it and signed up. By now, Dan'l was beginning to build a site for clues, based on public-domain maps from the Census Bureau's Tiger Mapserver. People would announce their clues by email, and Dan'l and I would enter them by hand onto the site. At that time, we even had little colored dots on the maps to represent each letterbox! You could click on a dot and pull up the clues for that box.

Then, Doc Mings announced that he was going to create an online database to go along with his listserve. Of course, this put a bit of a damper on Dan'l's plans, but he decided to carry on with his site, because he liked the idea of using maps, rather than strictly relying on a text-based data table. He had aspirations of someday being able to generate the little colored dots automatically by tying into the code for the Tiger Mapserver site. So there were two sites with two systems, and many of us embraced them both. Even though the clues to my growing list of boxes were all available on Dan'l's maps, I also entered them into Doc Mings' database. Doc Mings put his database on a site that he called the International Letterboxing Club, and secured the domain name www.letterboxing.com.

It is true that both Doc Mings and Dan'l had a propensity for making rules. In his defense, I will say that Dan'l's rules were primarily just rules for using his site. In fact, it was Dan'l who first said that "there are no rules to letterboxing". However, it was non-acceptance of Dan'l's rules that eventually drove him to bow out of the hobby.

Doc Mings, however, liked to make rules for the entire pastime of letterboxing. This habit of his began to concern many of us, since we'd been doing just fine before Doc Mings joined our group and began making rules for us. Many of us had by then placed quite a few boxes. Doc Mings had at that time placed only one. (He did eventually place 2 more.) Resentment for the Doc began to grow.

But I think the final straw for many of us was the day that Doc Mings started talking about generating funds. He said that the costs of supporting the listserve and the database were forcing him to rethink how he was going to structure his site. He suggested that he was going to start charging a fee for membership into the group, which would allow access to the database. He also talked about publishing all of our clues into a book and selling it for a profit to help cover his costs. This was the beginning of the end of letterboxing.com. Many of us began pulling our clues off of his site.

Because his ideas created such an uproar, Doc Mings never did go through with his plans to start charging money for clues. But his fate was sealed. Many of us now saw him as someone who was trying to capitalize on letterboxing, rather than someone who was lovingly obsessed with the hobby, like the rest of us.

Before long, we all began to recieve emails again using Dan'l's old method of putting a long list of addresses into the "To" box. So it's not really fair to say that we split off from Doc Mings' list. We were communicating before the Doc entered the scene. We tried his ideas out for a while, didn't care for them, and then moved on. The letterboxing community was fairly cohesive, but the mechanisms of communication changed over time.

Finally, I suggested to Dan'l that we did need to come up with something better than sending emails to a long list of recipients. I told him that there were services out there that would host a talk list for free, if we could tolerate some minimal advertising. He said that if I set something up, he would be willing to try it. So I did a bit of research and came up with e-groups. They only put an unobtrusive 3-line advertisement text at the bottom of each message, and had great tools for searching for old messages. So, I created a talk list, named it Letterbox-USA, and gave Dan'l the password to moderate it. And here we are... seven years later.

By the way... Yahoo eventually bought out e-groups. Nothing much has changed, except it's much harder to search through old messages now, and the advertising is more obtrusive.

I hope someone finds this information interesting. I certainly enjoy sharing it.

- Der Mad Stamper
________________________________________________

Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 23:44:48 -0000
From: "judithsparky"
Subject: A History question

Going all the way back to the first messages in 1998, I see that this
list is a split from a list hosted by "Eric". The split was because
Eric was going to begin to charge for his database. My question is -
Is Eric's list still operating? If so, what is is the address? Sorry
in advance if this question has been asked and answered before.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On further reflection, it was probably more like July 1998 when I first
contacted Dan'l.

- DMS

Mitch,

That was great! Thanks!

Letterboxr@aol.com wrote:
I hope someone finds this information interesting. I certainly enjoy sharing it.

- Der Mad Stamper
________________________________________________


---------------------------------
Yahoo! Sports
Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Yes, very interesting to get some idea of the history and evolution of
boxing in the states!!

We hope to meet you, or at least find some of your boxes, when we're
out in the Portland/Seattle area at the end of August.

Wisconsin Hiker

----- Original Message -----
From: Letterboxr@aol.com
Date: Thursday, June 23, 2005 12:58 pm
Subject: [LbNA] Re: A History question

> As I recall, the early chain of events went something like this...
> I read about letterboxing in the Smithsonian article, and began
> searching the web. This was probably sometime in May, 1998. I
> came across a very rudimentary page that had been created by
> Dan'l. It didn't have any clues... it just mentioned letterboxing
> and the Smithsonian article, and said something about trying to
> organize a list of volunteers and contacts from various states.
>
> I wrote to Dan'l and learned that he and EriK Davis had also read
> the article and had found each other throught the 'net. EriK had
> already planted at least one box, and now they had been talking
> about creating a web site to start housing the clues. I told him
> I thought this was very interesting, and said that if they needed
> me I would be happy to volunteer to organize things for the state
> of Oregon. Dan'l told me that he had already heard from someone
> else in Oregon named Thom. He said Thom had gone out and planted a
> box as soon as he read the article, in order to create a challenge
> for his 4x4 offroad buddies. So there was already a box in Oregon,
> but Dan'l didn't really think that Thom was going to have enough
> free time to serve as a volunteer. Therefore, he said they would
> be happy to list me as the volunteer for Oregon. Shortly after
> that, I also volunteered to help Dan'l build the website.
>
> As our group began to grow, Dan'l communicated to us by sending
> emails out to a long list of emails that all showed up at the top
> of every message. This was back before spam and viruses had become
> major threats, so nobody seemed too concerned about it. Before
> long, there were thirty or forty names on the list. One of them
> was Doc Mings from Florida. The Doc recognized that Dan'l's
> practice of inserting a long list of email addresses into the "To"
> box had its limitations, so he announced one day that he was
> creating a listserve (talk list) for us to use for communicating.
> Sounded like a great idea, so we all embraced it and signed up.
> By now, Dan'l was beginning to build a site for clues, based on
> public-domain maps from the Census Bureau's Tiger Mapserver.
> People would announce their clues by email, and Dan'l and I would
> enter them by hand onto the site. At that time, we even had
> little colored dots on the maps to represent each letterbox! You
> could click on a dot and pull up
>
> Then, Doc Mings announced that he was going to create an online
> database to go along with his listserve. Of course, this put a
> bit of a damper on Dan'l's plans, but he decided to carry on with
> his site, because he liked the idea of using maps, rather than
> strictly relying on a text-based data table. He had aspirations
> of someday being able to generate the little colored dots
> automatically by tying into the code for the Tiger Mapserver site.
> So there were two sites with two systems, and many of us embraced
> them both. Even though the clues to my growing list of boxes were
> all available on Dan'l's maps, I also entered them into Doc Mings'
> database. Doc Mings put his database on a site that he called the
> International Letterboxing Club, and secured the domain name
> www.letterboxing.com.
> It is true that both Doc Mings and Dan'l had a propensity for
> making rules. In his defense, I will say that Dan'l's rules were
> primarily just rules for using his site. In fact, it was Dan'l who
> first said that "there are no rules to letterboxing". However, it
> was non-acceptance of Dan'l's rules that eventually drove him to
> bow out of the hobby.
>
> Doc Mings, however, liked to make rules for the entire pastime of
> letterboxing. This habit of his began to concern many of us,
> since we'd been doing just fine before Doc Mings joined our group
> and began making rules for us. Many of us had by then placed quite
> a few boxes. Doc Mings had at that time placed only one. (He did
> eventually place 2 more.) Resentment for the Doc began to grow.
>
> But I think the final straw for many of us was the day that Doc
> Mings started talking about generating funds. He said that the
> costs of supporting the listserve and the database were forcing
> him to rethink how he was going to structure his site. He
> suggested that he was going to start charging a fee for membership
> into the group, which would allow access to the database. He also
> talked about publishing all of our clues into a book and selling
> it for a profit to help cover his costs. This was the beginning
> of the end of letterboxing.com. Many of us began pulling our
> clues off of his site.
>
> Because his ideas created such an uproar, Doc Mings never did go
> through with his plans to start charging money for clues. But his
> fate was sealed. Many of us now saw him as someone who was trying
> to capitalize on letterboxing, rather than someone who was
> lovingly obsessed with the hobby, like the rest of us.
>
> Before long, we all began to recieve emails again using Dan'l's
> old method of putting a long list of addresses into the "To" box.
> So it's not really fair to say that we split off from Doc Mings'
> list. We were communicating before the Doc entered the scene. We
> tried his ideas out for a while, didn't care for them, and then
> moved on. The letterboxing community was fairly cohesive, but the
> mechanisms of communication changed over time.
>
> Finally, I suggested to Dan'l that we did need to come up with
> something better than sending emails to a long list of recipients.
> I told him that there were services out there that would host a
> talk list for free, if we could tolerate some minimal advertising.
> He said that if I set something up, he would be willing to try
> it. So I did a bit of research and came up with e-groups. They
> only put an unobtrusive 3-line advertisement text at the bottom of
> each message, and had great tools for searching for old messages.
> So, I created a talk list, named it Letterbox-USA, and gave Dan'l
> the password to moderate it. And here we are... seven years later.
>
> By the way... Yahoo eventually bought out e-groups. Nothing much
> has changed, except it's much harder to search through old
> messages now, and the advertising is more obtrusive.
>
> I hope someone finds this information interesting. I certainly
> enjoy sharing it.
>
> - Der Mad Stamper
> ________________________________________________
>
> Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 23:44:48 -0000
> From: "judithsparky"
> Subject: A History question
>
> Going all the way back to the first messages in 1998, I see that
> this
> list is a split from a list hosted by "Eric". The split was
> because
> Eric was going to begin to charge for his database. My question
> is -
> Is Eric's list still operating? If so, what is is the address?
> Sorry
> in advance if this question has been asked and answered before.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Thanks so much Mitch!! I have heard pieces of that story, but I
haven't been able to get a more complete, 1st person account. I
appreciate you filling in the gaps.

Your own piece of the history of LBNA and your own website were
instrumental in my learning as a letterboxer when I joined this
slightly obsessed, often crazy group 2.5 years ago. I'm glad to hear
from you now and again on the list.

Cadenza

Dearest Mad Stamper..

You are indeed one of the Gods of Letterboxing...This is wonderful
stuff ... Thank you...THANK YOU for such lovely history. I'd forgottem
Thom Cheney's 4x4 letterboxing. We had a "biker boxer" too...can't
recall her name !

They were heady days indeed...

I still have the "To" lists with those famous names, in my back-up
directories...

I did a search on the word "rules" and it is fantastic how often it is
used !

The first "no rules" quote I found was from someone called "The
Mooreland Wizard" who said..."Rule number one; There are no rules in
Letterboxing". How wrong he was !

The dotty map still loads and looks cute...But none of the links work
sadly ! I should have saved them.

I drove all the way to Titusville (from DC) to get Doc Mings box ...
and a few earlier I'd gotten the Prayer Rock too. There were so few
boxes then it makes me weep to remember !

We must have all been insane !

We are so much better now

Heartland




--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, Letterboxr@a... wrote:
> As I recall, the early chain of events went something like this... I
read about letterboxing in the Smithsonian article, and began
searching the web. This was probably sometime in May, 1998. I came
across a very rudimentary page that had been created by Dan'l. It
didn't have any clues... it just mentioned letterboxing and the
Smithsonian article, and said something about trying to organize a
list of volunteers and contacts from various states.
>
> I wrote to Dan'l and learned that he and EriK Davis had also read
the article and had found each other throught the 'net. EriK had
already planted at least one box, and now they had been talking about
creating a web site to start housing the clues. I told him I thought
this was very interesting, and said that if they needed me I would be
happy to volunteer to organize things for the state of Oregon. Dan'l
told me that he had already heard from someone else in Oregon named
Thom. He said Thom had gone out and planted a box as soon as he read
the article, in order to create a challenge for his 4x4 offroad
buddies. So there was already a box in Oregon, but Dan'l didn't really
think that Thom was going to have enough free time to serve as a
volunteer. Therefore, he said they would be happy to list me as the
volunteer for Oregon. Shortly after that, I also volunteered to help
Dan'l build the website.
>
> As our group began to grow, Dan'l communicated to us by sending
emails out to a long list of emails that all showed up at the top of
every message. This was back before spam and viruses had become major
threats, so nobody seemed too concerned about it. Before long, there
were thirty or forty names on the list. One of them was Doc Mings
from Florida. The Doc recognized that Dan'l's practice of inserting a
long list of email addresses into the "To" box had its limitations, so
he announced one day that he was creating a listserve (talk list) for
us to use for communicating. Sounded like a great idea, so we all
embraced it and signed up. By now, Dan'l was beginning to build a
site for clues, based on public-domain maps from the Census Bureau's
Tiger Mapserver. People would announce their clues by email, and
Dan'l and I would enter them by hand onto the site. At that time, we
even had little colored dots on the maps to represent each letterbox!
You could click on a dot and pull up the clues for that box.
>
> Then, Doc Mings announced that he was going to create an online
database to go along with his listserve. Of course, this put a bit of
a damper on Dan'l's plans, but he decided to carry on with his site,
because he liked the idea of using maps, rather than strictly relying
on a text-based data table. He had aspirations of someday being able
to generate the little colored dots automatically by tying into the
code for the Tiger Mapserver site. So there were two sites with two
systems, and many of us embraced them both. Even though the clues to
my growing list of boxes were all available on Dan'l's maps, I also
entered them into Doc Mings' database. Doc Mings put his database on a
site that he called the International Letterboxing Club, and secured
the domain name www.letterboxing.com.
>
> It is true that both Doc Mings and Dan'l had a propensity for making
rules. In his defense, I will say that Dan'l's rules were primarily
just rules for using his site. In fact, it was Dan'l who first said
that "there are no rules to letterboxing". However, it was
non-acceptance of Dan'l's rules that eventually drove him to bow out
of the hobby.
>
> Doc Mings, however, liked to make rules for the entire pastime of
letterboxing. This habit of his began to concern many of us, since
we'd been doing just fine before Doc Mings joined our group and began
making rules for us. Many of us had by then placed quite a few boxes.
Doc Mings had at that time placed only one. (He did eventually place
2 more.) Resentment for the Doc began to grow.
>
> But I think the final straw for many of us was the day that Doc
Mings started talking about generating funds. He said that the costs
of supporting the listserve and the database were forcing him to
rethink how he was going to structure his site. He suggested that he
was going to start charging a fee for membership into the group, which
would allow access to the database. He also talked about publishing
all of our clues into a book and selling it for a profit to help cover
his costs. This was the beginning of the end of letterboxing.com.
Many of us began pulling our clues off of his site.
>
> Because his ideas created such an uproar, Doc Mings never did go
through with his plans to start charging money for clues. But his
fate was sealed. Many of us now saw him as someone who was trying to
capitalize on letterboxing, rather than someone who was lovingly
obsessed with the hobby, like the rest of us.
>
> Before long, we all began to recieve emails again using Dan'l's old
method of putting a long list of addresses into the "To" box. So it's
not really fair to say that we split off from Doc Mings' list. We
were communicating before the Doc entered the scene. We tried his
ideas out for a while, didn't care for them, and then moved on. The
letterboxing community was fairly cohesive, but the mechanisms of
communication changed over time.
>
> Finally, I suggested to Dan'l that we did need to come up with
something better than sending emails to a long list of recipients. I
told him that there were services out there that would host a talk
list for free, if we could tolerate some minimal advertising. He said
that if I set something up, he would be willing to try it. So I did a
bit of research and came up with e-groups. They only put an
unobtrusive 3-line advertisement text at the bottom of each message,
and had great tools for searching for old messages. So, I created a
talk list, named it Letterbox-USA, and gave Dan'l the password to
moderate it. And here we are... seven years later.
>
> By the way... Yahoo eventually bought out e-groups. Nothing much
has changed, except it's much harder to search through old messages
now, and the advertising is more obtrusive.
>
> I hope someone finds this information interesting. I certainly enjoy
sharing it.
>
> - Der Mad Stamper
> ________________________________________________
>
> Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 23:44:48 -0000
> From: "judithsparky"
> Subject: A History question
>
> Going all the way back to the first messages in 1998, I see that this
> list is a split from a list hosted by "Eric". The split was because
> Eric was going to begin to charge for his database. My question is -
> Is Eric's list still operating? If so, what is is the address? Sorry
> in advance if this question has been asked and answered before.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]